Restore Your Posture Through Spinal Fitness: Eileen Durfee on The Hacked Life Podcast

Joel Evan: All right. I'm here with Eileen Durfee. Welcome to the show, Eileen.

Eileen Durfee: Well, thanks for having me, Joe. It was a pleasure actually meeting you up there in Boise.

Joel Evan: Yeah, yeah. What a, what a treat! You know, just before jumping on, we are, we are just talking and I was just saying, man, it's been great. I've been following you for a while now just you know, since I mean, you're such an eclectic health, I don't want to say, pioneer. Well, I mean, you're a pioneer, but I was gonna really just say advocate, champion for health in so many ways. But I've been following you since you know, you have, you've been talking about saunas and enemas, and all this stuff. And now we've got a chance to meet, you've got some new products out there dealing with the spinal fitness, which we're gonna get into today. But yeah, it's just a real treat to just see all the cool things that you're, you're coming up with and inventing and, and it's really nice. And now here we are connecting again, and we get to share this with the world. So, thank you.

Eileen Durfee: Yeah. Well, I mean, my passion is spinal fitness because, I mean, when I was born, they ripped me out with forceps. My parents didn't know. But as I grew, my hips were twisted. It wasn't that my leg bones were shorter on one side than the other. But you know, when you got that fascia, that poor muscle memory and injury, you know, you've got dysfunction. And so, whenever I would walk or run as a young child, my right knee would hit my left knee. And so, I was very awkward. My hips are twisted in such a way that my right leg was like an inch shorter than the other one. And so, their answer even though you know, I'd be crying at night with pain was to put me in special shoes.

Joel Evan: I wore cast, Eileen. They put me in on cast, because they said, I was pigeon toed. My brother had the same thing.

Eileen Durfee: Yeah.

Joe Evan: This is fascinating.

Eileen Durfee: Yeah. And so, now it's like, like, with my grandchildren, I mean, we take them to the chiropractor, you know. We get them, you know, the structure starting off in a good place. And so that just, you know, magnified my pain. Eventually, my parents took me to a chiropractor who just put a lift in my shoe and, and then I grew nine inches in three months. I mean, I'm six foot tall, you know, and that was just painful beyond words. And then I was walking in a grocery store parking lot, and this lady was blinded by the sun and she just plowed right into me and I flew up on the hood. And it's like, my thoracic just went like crazy out and every breath I took was just like stabbing daggers.

I mean, I couldn't lift my arms. And, you know, went to all the doctors and you know, the neurologist, and they're just saying, oh, you're just not going to be able to have the range of motion to lift your arms up. And, and this 93-year-old chiropractor, Leon [0:03:04 inaudible] said, well, I know this young chiropractor, that's really into exercise. And that's what you need is, you need exercise to strengthen and to get these curves. So, I met a man called Dr. Scherger, John Scherger. And you know, he had these exercises and I mean, I was getting adjusted like almost every day initially after the accident. And you know, he pretty much rehabilitated me and, and I was so excited. And I mean, I taught exercise classes for him.

I almost went to school to become a chiropractor. And then I got sidetracked with nuclear powerplant engineering, and all that kind of stuff that paid so much money. But it always stayed with me and I stayed friends with him. And over the years, he started working with the US Olympic team in the 1980s and 1990s and worked with Bob Beaton and Jennifer Stone, and then he also worked with Ron O'Neil at the New England Patriots, you know, up until he died. Dr. Scherger passed in like 2006. And it was just interesting. They also worked with Smitty, who was an Olympic - legendary Olympic weightlifting trainer who worked for York Barbell for like 50 years. And so, what this team of people did, because it had never been done before, is analyzing the compression and shear forces on every joint in the human vertebrae through motion. And so, they developed certain exercises to be able to come up with ideal posture. Now, you know, if anybody's out there and, and purchased, like a, you know, a human spine, you know and everything like that. I bought one and I was like mathematically trying to manipulate it to have perfect posture. And people don't even know what perfect posture is mathematically to withstand the forces of gravity.

And so, Dr. Scherger, it was first written about by Leonardo da Vinci, and then Borelli in the 1680s. And then Burl Pettibon, who came up with the Pettibon system of, of you know, chiropractic care, where instead of just adjusting and relieving joint pressure, it was like, Okay, the reason why our vertebrae are going out is because we have loss of curve, you know, and then the shear forces reversed. So, then they give exercises, corrective exercises to try to bring that curve back. Well, Dr. Scherger took it another step further and developed, you know, something you - like, if you're going to move a big boulder, for instance, and you have a long lever. You need like a block. You put a block underneath there to get some, some force to be able to be stronger to move it.

So, so Dr. Scherger got the idea because he used to do gibbing and craning because he was an iron worker before. So, we started thinking of this lever arm and forces and the human spine. So, they mathematically determined the force that you have to apply on top of the body, and then a movement to induce the curvature and to shear back, you know, the vertebrae in proper location. Now, most people don't know I'm gonna grab the spine, real quick. Hold on, just a second.

Joel Evan: So, Eileen, I'm, this is. So, this is fascinating. I'm just kind of listening to you talk and just taking it all in. You're actually saying that, you know, in order to change the spine and actually make it that S shape, I think is what you're saying is, is good for us. We actually needed to apply some shear force. There needs to be some force, but it just needs to be in the proper amount it sounds like. Is that right?

Eileen Durfee: And location.

Joel Evan: And location. Okay.

Eileen Durfee: Yeah. Yeah. So, like, there's these bones on here. These are facet bones right here. And if you have this S shaped curve, the shear forces of gravity push on the spine back to where those bones lock on each other, which requires no muscle effort at all. It's just like strong like a vise. But if you have forward head posture, because you're, you know, texting, you're sitting at your computer, then these facet bones don't lock on each other. And the forces instead of pushing this way bone on bone, they push this way. And then you can have dislocation, because your ligaments and then the multifidus and the inner spinalis muscles fatigue. You know, because we're not doing exercises to strengthen those.

Actually, gravity life, regular sit-ups actually stress. Those are not strengthening them. And so, we have to realize that if we had the right S shape curve, you know, I guess the thing is, you know, that we can almost balance it in gravity without much weight. But if you've got this, I mean, to hold this up. I mean, you have so much and they, and they calculated how much weight that is, and what it does to the hamstrings and - And so basically, to get the mechanical advantage, we need that S shape curve, and you talk to physical therapists. They’re just like, how do you induce the right curvature?

Joel Evan: Yeah.

Eileen Durfee: They don't know of a way and so what we do is, we put the spine into position if it already had good posture. That's like the fulcrum that I talked about the rock. You got, you got that rock that you're trying to move with the lever. So, the spine is the lever. So, we strategically put a fulcrum we'll call it like a block underneath the spine. Then we put weight like in this case for the sit-up, you know, we put weight on the chest but like a pelvic tilt, we put it right here on the iliac to where then your, your body is going like this. And then it shear, you know, it's exercising in a way that you're not used to, because the normal sit-up is like, Let's destroy the curve, you know? Let's, let’s –

Joel Evan: Right.

Eileen Durfee: Let’s not –

Joel Evan: So, no, no good. Don't do sit-ups. Sit-up is not a good -

Eileen Durfee: No. So, we have a power cushion, it's called, that has a groove. So, it's kind of like keeping the train on the train track. It's similar to this cushion here. Everybody knows what a foam roller is. And this is different than the yoga rolls, the plexus wheel, the chirp wheel. Those have very little cushioning material on it. And the groove isn't deep enough, because it will hit that solid surface to where it crunches the spinous instead of allowing it to float, and then the transverse process part of the vertebrae catches on the edges. See, and then. So, in the power cushion, it has that specialized groove. And then by putting weight on the body, it's inducing a certain curvature, a certain motion. And what they found with NFL players, for instance, is that the common injury is L4-L5. And so, when you do the pelvic tilt, it reverses the shear and even if you have a herniated disc, because the disc is, you know, attached to one of the bones that are out of place. And so, when you do the shear forces with the pelvic tilt and put the, the force on top of your body with the right fulcrum underneath it, it shears it back into place. Like Luke Rockhold L4-L5 injury, Joe Rogan wanted him to go get surgery. He didn't. I gave him a power cushion. He's been doing it. He's fighting July 2. I mean, if you would have looked at his post, just his story yesterday, he says, his hips don't lie. I mean, that guy is recovered. And it's just math -

Joel Evan: And Eileen, that's all he's done is just using some of your spinal fitness regime that you've, you’ve designed. That's it. That’s like -

Eileen Durfee: Well, yeah, yeah, yep. He's, he's basically using, you know, the neck shaper, doing the sit-up and the pelvic tilt over the power cushion. And, yeah, and so it's given him the mechanical advantage. And so that's what they found with the NFL players is, they could shear that back or like, as the season progressed, and they were fatigued from injuries. They could like regularly do these pelvic tilts to, to reverse that shear force and get it back in there. And then the other one is the sit-up, where, you know, you're arching over, and you're putting weight, like on your chest, and you're sitting up. And so, you're gonna get your external obliques, and you're gonna do stuff, but your low back is in a protected area, and it actually encourages curvature. And then we have the neck flexion because, you know, the neck, a lot of people, you know, like that reminder. Oh, my gosh, shit, I just have to laugh when I see those ads for that reminder that buzzes when you're, you know, hunched over.

And you know, I just used to have the most roundish shoulders, but after doing the spinal fitness exercises, it has induced my curvature. But a reminder for me is, it's really the position of your head over your hips, that determines the shoulders. And so, when I do the neck shaper, you know, I just look up and the thing of it is, you don't do anything to the point of pain. You know, some people, they can only look up like this. They can't look up like that. And you know, when you're like nodding, I'm agreeing with you, that’s C5 in your neck. So, when you're nodding at somebody, you're not pushing your head forward or anything like this. So, this simple exercise is just nodding.

Joel Evan: Yeah.

Eileen Durfee: To do it right, you go up. And it's just chin down like you're nodding, but you're putting a little pressure on. And then when your chin is down, then you relax, just relaxing and then you’re pushing back. And when you push back, your low back curve increases and then your head is over your pelvis. And what's interesting is, is like, you see how my shoulders went back? It's, it's not having the sheer willpower to stand up straight. It's like let's do something that really strengthens the multifidus and the inner spinalis and give you that support under your body and the force on top to actually induce a curvature. And so, you know, from the time kids are in grade school, they're destroying their ability to gain the curvature because when you're born, you're a C shape. And it literally takes 18 years to develop the density and the ossification of your vertebrae, but also the shape.

And so, there's a lot of early sports development and things like that, that are harming children. And then, you know, look, back pain in America is $100 billion a year problem just for the low back and then, people are getting surgeries, and you know, all that kind of thing. And so, Dr. Scherger used to say that, you know, you brush and floss the teeth you want to keep. So, if you want to keep or get, because most people do not get that good curvature, is to just do your daily spinal fitness exercises, which is the neck flexion, the right kind of sit-up and a pelvic tilt. And it's like, you don't have to do much like initially, you might only do five or six reps of this.

Joel Evan: So, I was going to ask you, yeah. You've got a couple of things. And I think you've mentioned three different things. We've got the, the spinal. I mean, I'm sorry. The, we're going to do this, the cervic - I mean, is that the way you look at it, actually? Cervical, thoracic, lumbar, hit all those three areas?

Eileen Durfee: Yeah, yeah.

Joel Evan: So, hit those three. Okay. So, let's - if you know, it's me, we're talking about. And I'm, I’m the average person too. Right? We were talking just beforehand, like, hey, how much have you gotten a chance to use the product? Not that much, because I, the first week, I was really good. And then I got into bad habits and stopped doing it. So, minimum effective dose, I'm curious. Someone gets these things like, what are like the things I need to be doing? Like minimum effective dose. And then like, how long? How many reps? And when do you, and then my next question will be like, when do you kind of start seeing change? When do people start telling you, Oh, my God, I feel so much better, you know?

Eileen Durfee: Right. Well, what I say is, initially just five minutes a day. I mean, literally, how long does it take to do six reps? Not very many. And then, you know, we're -

Joel Evan: So, just once a day. Even if you just did it once a day with the, the cervical?

Eileen Durfee: Right, yeah. And then what we do have to stretch the vertebrae in your back and get more nerve impulses going is the Back Trac and we have it in two different densities. And then, another thing that's phenomenally effective is, putting the body in a state where your muscles relax. See, a lot of people are into stretching, which I'm an advocate of stretching. But when you've got somebody with chronic tight muscles, tight hamstrings, it's almost like refusing to pull the nail out of a tire and carrying around a compressed air can and all the stretching, because you cannot change the attachment points of muscle to bone. So, why are the muscles tight? The bones are in the wrong location, or shape. I mean, I haven't seen one person with the ideal S curvature in years, like probably in 30 years.

Joel Evan: And these are even, you're talking about the professional athletes that you work with as well in the NFL and the MMA and the UFC, you're saying, all these people?

Eileen Durfee: Yeah, yeah. I mean, Luke Rockhold is the closest thing that I've seen. He's got a 375 curve on that low back. His weakness is, he's got forward head posture course fighters, you know. They're, they are arched over. They're protecting themselves. So, it's just like eating candy before bed and refusing to floss and brush. That's why the spinal fitness is so important for them to do that, to get it and I just met him Tuesday, and I was in there and I was checking the shoulders and it's like such a dramatic improvement. Because you know, if your brain tells you to get your right hand up, and you know you're gonna punch, but if you have nerve impingement, that body reflex is going to be slower. See. So, you know, that was his weakness was, you know, the forward head posture, which actually affects the low back too. So, it's like a whole organism. And so, we need to get the shape. And that's what's not being taught. Like I said earlier, when we were talking before the show, a lot of these functional patterns are getting people out of pain. And they're getting them into a more straight spine.

Joel Evan: Neutral spine, right? We hear that a lot. I mean, people -

Eileen Durfee: And that's, that’s not athletically the best, you know. See, when you've got the shapes, and it's all balanced over, you know, your hamstrings are totally loose, zero pounds of effort. But if you're just two inches this way, two inches that way, it's 843 pounds of strength on the hamstrings. So, what are hamstrings for? They are for a locomotion. So that means your body constantly whenever you have tight muscles, it's a protective mechanism. It's, Hey, don't drift any farther out of position, because then that pinches nerves. Look at all the, every nerve coming from our brainstems. You know, so, so if we have tight muscles, it's trying to protect nerve impulses to our organs. And so that's protective. So, when you're going to run, if you've got a structure issue, and you have tight hamstrings, you don't get that for fast muscle twitch recruitment. It will save that. So, what does that do? Your stride is shorter, your speed is less, you can't jump as high.

You know, and so I meet all these athletes. We met, I had you feel your hamstrings. We had you bend over, we had you put your arms up. A lot of people have, you know, their arms forward that tells me about their neck, how they lead with their eyes. I mean, I can tell their weakness just by a few evaluations. And then we go through one set of exercises. I had one guy gain 11 inches in reach. He was like just reaching his fingertips just below his knees, and he could touch the ground after five minutes, you know, or people will be pretty good in their low back and then maybe not be able to turn their head very far. But everyone, every single person is like, Wow! I was with UFC fighter Chito. He couldn't touch his fingertips to the ground. There's a video on my Instagram, where I'm putting the pressure on his iliac bones and he's doing the pelvic tilt. And afterwards, he can touch. He can't be hands down, you know but he’s like this where before he was like this. And that's significant, you know, for flexibility and athletic performance. And people don't realize.

I mean, I'm going to be 60 years old in May. But if you took an x ray of my spine, I don't have a lot of edges wore off. I don't have a lot of deteriorated discs because I've been practicing these exercises, and getting, you know, I go to the chiropractor every two weeks, you know, and I just, you know, have taken care of my body. But, you know, it's, it’s like a bent crank shaft in a motor. You know, you're gonna have extra heat, you are gonna have wear and tear. You know, you're just not going to have the energy. How many people when they have had a back pain, or an episode? You know, you just, it's like a massive amount of energy that the body consumes keeping your body erect in gravity.

Joel Evan: Yep. Great, great, great point. And I mean, I think one of the great things you said earlier too was, you know that hinting and the fact that, you know, if things are tight - but you may not notice it and feel it but your body is in a state of fight or flight constantly. And so, stress levels go up and all these other things, and then if your body's always in fight or flight, you know, because of this tenseness, man, it's gonna be tough. The nervous system is on overload and it's going to be tough to recover. It's going to be tough to do all the other things that you're talking about. Right?

Eileen Durfee: Right. So, yeah. It's, it's progressive. One of the neat things that people could do now and I have PDF guides on my website for free for download. And it explains how to do all these exercises. I've got anatomical pictures step by step. But before we get the power cushion, you know, they can duct tape up a sleeping bag. See, the exercise ball is the wrong arc. So, you can't get the posterior support with you know, putting force on your body on top to do the exercises to get any change but you can roll up a sleeping bag and tape it for now. Yeah, it's not going to have the density like this foam does to really shift and move your bones. But it's going to get you doing a sit-up differently. You know, you can put some weight on your chest with a plate, you know, and, and do some sit-ups. You can do a pelvic tilt, by having a partner put their palms and putting some resistance on that hip bone. I mean, we have a post where we were together, and some other posts on Instagram that kind of gives a visual for that. But one of the key things are these rolls, you know.

Joel Evan: Yeah. I’ve got a couple of them right here.

Eileen Durfee: Yeah.

Joel Evan: That you gave me.

Eileen Durfee: Yeah. They, they come in five different diameters for the low back, five different diameters for the neck. And they come in three different densities. And that's because everybody's different. You know, the blue is soft, the orange is medium, and the red is hard. And when you do this, back twist we call it, you just sit up straight, chin up, arms out, you lead with the eyes, and you're looking and you're twisting, you know, keeping your column straight. See, your, your discs are like the consistency of a sponge. But when you do that twist, you know, blood flow nourishment goes and that disc turns to like a soft gel. It becomes pliable. And so, when you lay down over a properly sized rolls, you can see there's the groove for the low back. There's the groove for the neck bone, and you put them underneath your body of guy that tells you where there's actually a video on how to do it. You just put it one inch above, you know. When you're laying down, you're going to put that low back one about right there, you know, one inch above your iliac.

And then you're going to fill the curve of your neck, you know, so the back of your head hits the ground. And so, if you have a flat back, you're going to need a small diameter cushion. Then, if you have a real big curve, you're going to need a bigger diameter cushion. And if you're injured, you're going to need softer. Or if you have any pain in your back, you're gonna need softer, but it's crazy. You, you do the twist, and you lay over this for 20 minutes. And in that process, remember how I talked about the tight muscles. You can't change the attachment point to the bone. And it's tight because it's protecting you in gravity because your shape is not ideal. So, you lay over this. There's no gravity anymore. Literally, you will hear your bones pop, when you're just laying over these cushions. And then after 20 minutes, the disc that was a gel. So, it's being moldable, it actually firms back up to the consistency of a sponge.

So, then you're able to roll off and get off of there. And you're - you feel your, your body is like going back to the better posture. It's building that memory for it. And it's amazing. I had a neighboring business next door and the man's son, you know, he was about 12 years old. He was jumping on a trampoline, and he fell off and damaged his neck and he'd been having seizures and he had been through all the physical therapy, everything. Nothing would help him. And so, I sized him with some ugly prototype cushions at that time and taught him how to do it. And he laid over it. And his dad called me about a month later and he says, you know, my son takes those with him everywhere in his backpack and he is faithful. He does them every day and he's never had a seizure since.

Joel Evan: Wow.

Eileen Durfee: I mean, it's so corrective. It feels so good, people with headaches because of their neck tension. I mean, this is just like crazy. And so, because of there being so many different back postures, you know stature heights, everything comes into play in it. We came up with a sizing kit. So, we have the different diameters and a few different densities. I didn't do a density in every diameter, but you can lay down over these and get an idea, what’s the back of my head touching. So, you can order the size to get started with and then because we all need that ideal curvature and basically, we just have loss of curvature. You know, we're too much at our computers, on our phones. It just, gravity is taking its toll.

Joel Evan: Yeah. Eileen, on that note, I'm curious. I remember hearing something saying that if you're like a degree off or something. Maybe, maybe it's a little bit more, but like if you’re a degree off in that forward posture that all of us are in that kyphosis. Right?

Eileen Durfee: Right.

Joel Evan: Forwards that, if it's like just a degree or two, like the difference in the amount of force, it's like 60 pounds or something of gravity, like going in that direction.

Eileen Durfee: Oh, yeah.

Joel Evan: I don't know. Is that the number or what –

Eileen Durfee: I’ve got a -

Joel Evan: But if you just imagine, over and over again, if you’re daily walking in that position, then man, you're gonna have some damage over 20, 30 years, and then we wake up and we're like, Man, why does my back hurt? Or why does my neck hurt? Right. It’s like –

Eileen Durfee: Yeah, yeah, it's, it's incredible. I - in my PDF guides, it shows, you know, neutral posture, which in my mind is the S-shaped curve where everything's balanced over. You have minimal muscles firing, versus military straight versus forward head posture. And it evaluates because you not only have tightness of muscle, but the compression forces change as well. So, my documents tell you both based on posture, like I gave the example of 843 pounds of the hamstring’s effort, if you're two inches at the waist, and two inches looking down. There's all kinds of other ones as far as the shear and the compression in the knees. I mean, how many knee replacements are we having, and, and the hips and just, you know, the neck muscles, but yeah, it goes from like, I think 32 pounds to like, in some cases, like 170 pounds. I mean, it's, it's huge.

It's like if you just took a broom handle and it was straight up, and you balanced it, no effort, but tilt it two inches, and your hand can't hold it. Borelli did the analysis of a stevedores, just a person with 100-pound bag over their shoulder. And he did the mathematical calculation for all the shear forces and the, and the weight on the body, and it was over 15,000 pounds. That was translated into the joints of the structure of the human anatomy. And that just takes its toll and it, and it causes people to become injured, you know, because there's a lot of training out there about building muscles. And, you know, so Dr. Scherger used to say, body muscle overload training, you know, does not make a strong joint. And there's an analysis.

You know, a lot of weightlifters will do the leg extension and the leg curl. And Dr. Scherger did the mathematical analysis. I mean, it went to Cornell University even. And when Dr. Scherger worked with the New England Patriots, The New York Giants and Jets and the Dallas Cowboys. He told them, don't do those exercises anymore. And he showed because the ACL ligament can only stretch a certain amount. And when you do those exercises that it puts it in an unprotected state where it overstresses it. And in the documents that I wrote, I laid out and I quote some of his research to show exercises we recommend and the ones to avoid and then also an evaluation. Dr. Scherger used to help the New England Patriots pick who to draft. And so if you look historically, you know, in the 2000s, in the late 1990s, they didn't spend very much and they got a lot of good athletes, because you can have somebody who has tremendous talent, tremendous stats, but then you can see their neck and then you can see some things and you know they're set up for injury versus somebody who has good curvature, or you know, that can be trained and polished that will be less likely to be injured that can be a superior player.

Spinal fitness is all about designing the mechanical advantage to be a superior athlete, and we can take anybody and give them that curvature over time. It's just like going out and taking - and having some sun. You know, pretty soon, your body is gonna adapt and you're gonna get a tan. Same thing with the spine. So, you start off really slow, like five minutes a day. And you might only do 5, 10 reps, never to the point of pain, and then you continue doing that like three to five times a week. And then eventually, where you workup where you can do 100 reps. You know, then, you're adding more weight. And, you know, but it'll, it'll pay off because those tight muscles that you're stretching forever to get rid of, you know, will instantly be better. And then as you do it, the memory and the multifidus and inner spinalis get strengthened and the shear forces. You know, you're just going to start feeling more energetic, you're going to feel lighter, taller, faster, you know, less pain. You're going to be sleeping better, you know.

Joel Evan: Yeah. I want to, I want to ask you a question about sleep. But real quick. I'm thinking about a couple of clients that I work with that have two, two clients, in particular. One with neck, neck fusion, actually. And I'm wondering, you know, one of the things I keyed up on that you said was that, it's the, you know, they need to be strengthened. These, these neck, I'm always thinking of people with tight necks, but you're actually saying, No, we need to strengthen these muscles. So, I'm curious, like, people like that with these neck fusions. And they've had bone scarring and issues like that. Do you see, have you seen success or would that be even a good protocol for them to maintain, to strengthen that cervical?

Eileen Durfee: So, when they've had a fusion, you have to be really careful about using this, because once it's fused, those bones are immovable, but laying over the cushions, you know, and gently, you know, doing some stuff that doesn't cause pain, then the other bones are going to become more flexible, and the body can adapt to a better curvature and gravity to where they don't have as many tight muscles. You know, this. You know, there's a guy who was scheduled for neck surgery. 10 years of just chronic neck pain, therapy, everything couldn't, couldn't break it. He had this for two weeks. And he started off just six times a day, just a few, just a few. Like, you know, if you're at your desk, or if you get up, go to the bathroom and get up, drink water, just do a few. He didn't do anything else. He did those. And in two weeks, his pain was gone and canceled his surgery, because it’s shape. It is your shape, and you can get your shape back.

Joel Evan: I love that. I love that. You know what it reminds me of too is, when I interviewed Dr John Jaquish, who was talking about, you know, weightlifting as a waste of time, and how the, really the proper way to build strength and muscle, but he was describing kind of what you're saying like, our bones, that's our chassis. And so, if you can build the chassis and make it stronger, well then, guess what, you can put more load on that chassis. You can put more muscle on that chassis, because that at its root is stronger. So, it's really cool. Well, it kind of ties in with what you're saying. I'm wondering too. I have another client I'm thinking about who has like a facet joint issue in the lower lumbar. Have you had any like success with that or like I think it's, his facet joint is like out but I would imagine doing just like the daily lying down like that you showed me, putting one under the hip –

Eileen Durfee: Huge…

Joe Evan: Getting one on the neck.

Eileen Durfee: Huge and, and then, gently doing the Back Trac. We have two different densities. Like we have the hard and we have the soft. So I'd recommend starting with the soft like I had a bicycle mishap and you know, when I was jumping off trying to avoid an accident, I slammed into the guardrail with my ribs and I had been to the chiropractor, craniosacral, still was in pain. And my prototype came and I rolled on this thing and my rib went in place and it was just like, oh, all of a sudden, I can raise my arm again, and instead of like chronic pain, I can't even brush my hair. And so, for cuz you can roll clear down in the low back and clear up, you know, to the base of your neck with this, that that would be really, really good for him. But you know, gradually increasing the diameter of these. That's what you have to do is, you have to buy ones that you're comfortable laying over and then ones that you have to bend your knees to be comfortable in the low back.

But this, laying over this with the muscles relaxed, bones drift. I mean, I mean I'm having major league baseball players, UFC fighters, NFL players laying over these and they're going, Wow and we're hearing their bones snap because their tight muscles are letting go when they're drifting. And so then, you know, for now, using the guide to tape up a sleeping bag to start arching over that, you know, in short order, you know that curvature, you know, because those facets are supposed to lock on each other the, the upper and the lower. And when you have lots of curves, see how it can twist, you know, but if you had the proper curvature, it's actually impossible for it to go out of alignment. See how great having the S-shaped curve makes you, you know. You're less susceptible to injury besides, your muscles aren't tight until you recruit them, you know.

Joel Evan: Amazing stuff. Okay, so I know we're running up close to the top of the hour. So, I want to just make sure. People that are, I mean, this makes perfect sense to me, I love it. And it's just simple really too and I'm listening to you talk and I'm gonna go on, you know, the next 30 days and make a commitment to be, to be doing this every day, or at least more than - at least a couple of times a week. At least the neck exercises, that's easy. So, I think a good recipe for anybody that's just starting, and that's listening to this episode. Doing just the neck exercises six times a day, and then even the 20 minutes of just laying down, right? If they did just those two things, I mean, we would see some huge improvements, not even adding the pelvic tilt or even the thoracic tilts, right?

Eileen Durfee: Oh, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. I mean –

Joel Evan: And that one, I'm gonna start doing.

Eileen Durfee: Anybody who's at their desk, and they have any pain going through their arm or tightness, or low back thing, everything is gonna get better just by doing those.

Joel Evan: Have you? Yeah, I mean, just thinking about that, you know, what you just mentioned. Have you seen anybody like with thoracic outlet, or just any, like nerve pain, or we, we hear a lot about the carpal tunnel, right? Or like the nerve going down, right, which we know, like, catches into the scalenes and comes all the way down. Have you had any, just by doing? I mean, you have already these great testimonials. But now I'm just thinking.

Eileen Durfee: Yeah, all that is really the neck curvature, you know. From your brainstem, every nerve comes out between your vertebrae. And even if that vertebrae isn't totally out, but because of the shape, the nerve canal is less, think about it. You're getting impingement, you're getting less flow, less energy, you know, which causes pain and it's like, I was having private old shoulder injury, you know, from debarking logs, building the cabin, you know. And so that happened like in 2000. So, you know, I fight that, you know, when I'm weightlifting and doing different things with my shoulder. My shoulder was bothering me again, and I took like a harder, bigger neck cushion. And I was laying on my workbench and I had the, the neck shaper clamped onto actually ordinary barbell, and I've got like 30 pounds on there, and I'm doing the neck flexion.

Actually, the video is, is on my Instagram, it has music. So, you don't hear the cracking every time I, you know, the crack, crack, crack, crack, crack, crack. Then, I get up and my shoulder problem is gone. It was really my neck that, you know. So, it's like everything I believe really starts with the spine for most people. And so just treating a wrist, you know, could really be related, a high probability, you know, to your spine.

Joel Evan: Shoulder, neck. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And then I wanted to ask you just real quickly about sleep. Have you, you know, it makes total sense that if you're going to do something, like the lying down, the 20 minutes lying down with the lumbar and then the cervical, that, you know, we know that there's this nice recovery time that the brain goes through, the glymphatic system, the washing away those plaques at night when we're sleeping. So, I'm curious, if you've heard or reported of just anybody, you know, improved deep sleep or sleep scores, because they've been, you know, they've used that 20-minute protocol, which I think is already a nice parasympathetic, you know, method into getting into a relaxed, rest and relax state. But yeah, have you, have you heard anything about people's deep sleep improving? I'm curious.

Eileen Durfee: Yes. And what it does is, you know, we have actually, our spinal fluid has a rhythm. And when we've got impingement either from tight fascia or bones being out of place or what have you, that cerebrospinal fluid that washes down the brain, that works through that is stagnated. And so, when you lay on these and your bones are drifting, you feel them. And releasing, you will generally feel more energy flowing in your body and the cerebrospinal fluid begins washing and circulating. And that definitely impacts the body and improves the sleep.

Joel Evan: Okay, cool. Well, let's do some lightning round questions, if you don't mind.

Eileen Durfee: Sure, go ahead.

Joel Evan: I'm curious if the old you could see the new you. What would the new you say?

Eileen Durfee: You know, life did not need to be so difficult. I could have enjoyed the journey. See, when I was younger, I didn't enjoy the journey. I was very ill, sick, stressed out. You know, I don't have the skills. I didn't have the skills that I have now. And so yeah, could have been a lot more present.

Joel Evan: Love that. I'm curious. What are some choices that you think you made that made you who you are today?

Eileen Durfee: I had this, I don't know. It was just part of me to continue believing that if my body just had what it needed, that I could be healthy and whole and, and feel good, and be happy because, you know, doctors and medication and constant pain, you know. When I was younger, allergic to everything, and all the different. I mean, I had psoriasis all over my body. My hair was falling out. I couldn't think. I mean, I had like, it was easier to say what was working than what wasn't. And so now at, you know, 60 years old next month, no pain in my body, sleeping well, waking up with energy, happy, just clarity. I mean, if you look at videos from me 10 years ago, you're like, Wow! I'm getting younger. And that's what I'm doing is, getting biologically younger, and you know, using time to harness the wisdom, you know, always learning, you know?

Joel Evan: Yeah, people that don't know you, I just want to say acknowledge you like, you're really an inventor. I mean, if anybody goes to your website, I mean, there's just so many things you're doing and so many. And when we got to chat in person, about a month ago or so, I mean, I was just, I was just blown away at like, you're doing the spinal fitness thing. But you've got so many other projects too that you're working on. It's just really inspiring to see just all the good that you're out there working towards and like, it's just, I could just see your brain working. It's like, it's never gonna stop. And like, you’re -

Eileen Durfee: No. It’s, it’s like, that's my joy. I mean, there's a lot of inventors in my family. Actually, we’re related to the Wright brothers and my dad has invented stuff. My uncles, cousins have invented things. And it's kind of like, I've always been interested in gizmos and gadgets. So, I just buy all of them and try them. And then it's like, I think, Man, I wish it was like this. And then I just go to sleep. And I see it. I mean, because you know my mind’s, I know how to draw on AutoCAD, and you know, I just, engineering and, and then it's like, I'm like building things, trying them, tweaking them. But I also have lucid dreams. I hear things. So, it's like, I'm getting help. And so, it's just a flow. And yeah, it just seems like it never stops, you know. I've just had - when I was in Hollywood on a trip, I came up with two new inventions. Actually, I'm doing patent searches right now on those. And you know, it just - I have one. Well, I have 10 patents in the United States, seven utility, three design patents. There's two more I'm going to file just on spinal fitness. And then there's another two that I'm working on that are unrelated. But I mean, I've been issued a utility patent on something that's going to disrupt the whole industry and I haven't even made it yet, you know. I mean, I did on my 3D printer, but not you know, functional. So yeah, it's, that's the, the joy. That's, I'm actually finally getting to do what I was created to do.

Joel Evan: 100% you are. I'm curious. You know, you are such a force in the wellness world. You know, who inspires you? Is there anybody that you follow or that inspires you?

Eileen Durfee: Um, well, I constantly read and search on everything. And, and it's like, I'm not afraid to let go of a previous belief that is outdated. You know, and so I would never make something or recommend something, even if I can make money if it wasn't the very best, the very safest and everything like that. So, it's, it's been an evolution and so you know, all the biohacking, all the different things, all the different diets and just all the, the studies, you know, of research. You know, and then I've got all these, I have clients in 91 countries. And so, it's like, everybody, you know, seems to think I'm the expert on everything. And they ask me questions. And it's like, I have no idea.

So, they're gonna like read for hours, and, and it's like, oh, wow, I'm glad I learned that, you know. And so that's kind of, you know, it's just like, every day, every day for hours when I get up. You know, when I, I'm multitasking when I'm in my sauna, when I'm in the hyperbaric oxygen chamber, because I have one of those at home, you know. But so it's like, I'm also implementing and trying things, being my own guinea pig and then measuring, with laboratory testing, you know, the effects and just trying to be able to help people because, you know, I was sick for so long. I mean, my passion is, people shouldn't have to suffer. I mean, I'd rather pray for them and have them supernaturally be healed. But until then, you know, it's just learning, you know?

Joel Evan: Yeah. So, my next question, this was perfect. I was gonna, and maybe you won't be able to answer it because you have so many. But I always like to ask. I'm a big reader, too. Are there like one to three books that just stand out for you that had a huge impact in your life that you would recommend other people reading?

Eileen Durfee: Oh, number one book would be Your Body's Many Cries for Water. And because 80% of people are dehydrated, and I believe that 80% of disease is caused by not being properly hydrated.

Joel Evan: Funny, too, because right before we got on, I texted you, I said, Hey, I'm getting a cup of coffee. And you said, Good. I'm getting water.

Eileen Durfee: Yeah, water, water with my Healthy Salt. That's 20% minerals, 11.72 pH with a negative charge. So, it's like expanding EZ, Exclusion Zone water in my body. But that is like the number one book because -

Joel Evan: That's fascinating. I've never had anybody mention that. That's so cool. I'm gonna have to check that one out.

Eileen Durfee: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it’s Dr. Batman, and I have no idea how to pronounce his last name. I know I butcher it, you know, every time. And then. Boy, that's been the most impactful, the EZ Water book from Dr. Gerald Pollack is wonderful as well. It kind of relates to that as far as energy and things like that. But there's so many books, but there is one that I really recommend to all my clients, because whenever you start a protocol, everybody's different. Like, for instance, how much Healthy Salt do I take? You know, the recommended dose is three little scoops. But some people have to start out with what balances on a toothpick, literally, because of the power and the detoxification. So, I recommend every client, get the book, and at least read one chapter. It’s called the Emotion Code by Dr. Bradley Nelson.

Joel Evan: I just interviewed him a couple of interviews ago, the book is behind me.

Eileen Durfee: Yeah.

Joel Evan: Amazing book. I love that you said that.

Eileen Durfee: Because –

Joel Evan: I couldn’t agree more.

Eileen Durfee: … the, because your body knows. And if you can figure out the method to do the energy testing. Like my mom was really good at the sway where I am really good at using a pendant, but each person - but he has the chapter that is the absolute best way that I've heard anybody explain it to train people how to do that. Because a lot of times, it's the combination of things that you're taking, or at a particular time, it's better to take besides the whole emotion thing, you know, to, you know, deal with. And so that would be the other book. So, it's really the, the, Your Body's Many Cries for Water, the Emotion Code, and I'm trying to think of a third one.

Joel Evan: Well, you don't need a third one. I just was – if there was, I just say one to three because for some people, they're like, Oh, I could give you 10. I'm like, no, that's too many. Just one to three tops. Now, those are great. Those are amazing. I love that. Last two questions and we'll wrap it up. I'm curious, you know, especially you being a biohacker and you've got the sauna and the ozone and everything. And what are just some rituals or hacks that you do on a regular basis? Any practices or anything like that that -

Eileen Durfee: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, I try to get morning sunlight in grounding and hydration, you know. First thing, drink some spring water. You know, I'm really big into the surface tension of the water creating, you know, the hydration with the minerals, and then drinking ozonated water. And then taking, you know, a near infrared sauna. And in my sauna, because light travels at the speed of light, it can't escape. And then with the R-12 insulation, with the Breathe Safe, which makes, increases background oxygen levels, 70% to 118%. But it also cleans up your toxic, humidified sauna sweat. You know, and, and actually, when you inhale that many negative ions per cubic centimeter, your sweat volume doubles.

So, it's like in, in my sauna system with, with having that Healthy Salt with the negative charge with the minerals, with the, the 550 to 3400 nanometers of light, you know, EZ water expands the best when you shine 3000 nanometers on it. So, it's like you're going into the sauna and actually hydrating and creating hydroelectric energy besides the ATP from the mitochondria. So, I do that, you know, do a little dry brushing movement, because actually movement in near infrared is special because it lowers your blood sugars. You know, so I mean, a lot of people have problems with insulin spiking, you know. So that's gonna help with that. Your flexibility, then nitric oxide. You know, so dosing with that, and then doing a cold shower. I have a ozonator hooked up to my shower. So, it's like ozonated cold water shower. And then I have the standup coffee enema, no mess solution.

So, you know, while I'm taking this shower, you know, I, I pump in the ozone. I mean, not the ozone but the coffee solution. And I'm, you know, up the ascending and over the transverse massaging that. And then whenever I need to eliminate, I just go sit on the toilet, and then come back in and then I fill again. So, it's a double back-to-back. And so that's kind of like my morning. And then I throw in my hyperbaric oxygen chamber, and then I throw in my spinal fitness, and then some HIIT exercise with some weightlifting, because you know, that's the thing. When you're getting older, it's the muscle mass, and people don't realize that your organs are like muscles, too. So, if you're not building muscle, you know, your organs are deteriorating, too. So, it's not just about having a six pack and all of that, but it's so much more for the wellness. So, that's kind of like my day. So, that's why I don't get into the office till the afternoon.

Joel Evan: You have, that's probably the best ritual. I haven't heard anybody. And clearly, I need to up my game. Wow, you. Yeah, I thought I had some pretty good hacks in my day, but yours is way better. I'm gonna have to start taking. I'm gonna steal some of your practices, if you don't mind.

Eileen Durfee: Oh, yeah, yeah. Definitely. I mean, hydrogen. You know, I have a little Hydrogen Generator. So, besides taking my Breathe Safe into my hyperbaric oxygen chamber, because hyperbaric strips negative ions from the air. So, I get my negative ions. I get more oxygen besides my oxygen concentrator, but I've wanted those where I breathe hydrogen gas too while I'm in there. So, that's an antioxidant, you know. And so yeah, it's like, I gotta get, I have a hydrogen water maker, and I need to get that where I'm using it regularly. It's like my house is tore apart because we're repainting. And so, after that gets done, then I'm going to move that on down to the kitchen, because I used to. Before my stand-up coffee enema fix, I used to have a Clima Board and I'd lay down and then I had my hydrogen machine there and I had it where I inhaled hydrogen gas and I have my near infrared light shining down from the ceiling. So, I was like, triple stacking my hacks.

Joel Evan: Awesome stuff.

Eileen Durfee: Oh, well, I appreciate you having me and we've got to meet up and I gotta get you a Back Trac and go over some more of these workout routines.

Joel Evan: I would love that. Yeah. Next time you're in Idaho, please. Your hou - Mi Casa su casa. Any time, seriously.

Eileen Durfee: Alright.